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Guild: wafer.space Community
Channel: ℹ️ - Information / 🤪-off-topic
Topic: Discussions ***unrelated*** to wafer.space or unconnected to IC design.

Prefer <#1361349523724570941> for any IC design or wafer.space related chatter.
After: 2026-09-30 11:59 p.m.
Before: 2026-11-01 12:00 a.m.
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[2026-10-05 6:32 a.m.] anfroholic
Hey all, I will be meeting with the place that's dicing the wafers. Again this time, they're requesting we back-grind the wafers. We're looking to reduce costs as best we can. 
I have a list of questions here. Can anyone think of any better (more) questions to ask? 

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- What saw street widths would allow us to dice without backgrinding?
- What width for multi pass cut?
- What width for single pass cut?
- If we are able to provide 250um would that be sufficient?

- What types of saws exist and what type of trade offs between them?


- What information is most useful when planning dicing schemes
  - Is single reticle detail, and general reticle in wafer sufficient? 
  - Would another filetype be better?   DXF, etc? 

- What is the primary driver of cost? Dicing time? Config set up? Saw type?

- How is pricing structured: per wafer, per cut, per program setup, per die picked? 
- What's a one-time cost versus a recurring cost? 

Thanks!!


[2026-10-05 6:55 a.m.] mole99
> If we are able to provide 250um would that be sufficient?

250um seems quite wide to me and would probably mean that we need to remove a few slots from the reticle.
Perhaps we should just ask what width would be strictly necessary, instead of leading with a number.

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[2026-10-05 7:05 a.m.] 246tnt
What's the current street width ?


[2026-10-05 7:21 a.m.] anfroholic
60um
-# I can't seem to locate the run2 sheet easily, but it's the same.

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[2026-10-05 7:22 a.m.] anfroholic
This specific number was provided by @Tim 'mithro' Ansell 
I think it was what we may have with the 90deg rotated dies? Not sure exactly.


[2026-10-05 7:28 a.m.] mole99
https://github.com/wafer-space/reticle-stitcher/blob/main/docs/reticle-wsrun2.pdf

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https://github.com/wafer-space/reticle-stitcher/blob/main/docs/reticle-wsrun2.pdf
reticle-stitcher/docs/reticle-wsrun2.pdf at main · wafer-space/ret...
Tool for stitcher an MPW into a full reticle for delivery to a foundry. - wafer-space/reticle-stitcher


[2026-10-05 7:28 a.m.] mole99
I see! Still, we should first see what they actually require :)

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[2026-10-05 7:33 a.m.] anfroholic
Agreed, I think my frame of questioning basically sounds like...
Thicker wheels can more aggressively cut -- BUT these larger wheels chip more. (some of my experience as a machinist)
This also means consumables costs go down, machine cost goes down
But the cost in silicon goes up (larger saw street) 

I'm sure we'll go around and around and they won't give me an answer, I've done this before, but in the end I think they'll guide us towards our optimal solution.

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[2026-10-07 5:54 a.m.] anfroholic
Just writing down a thing I heard. 
It was referencing backside chipping.. How much do we even care about that? as long as it doesn't affect the front, we are good??


[2026-10-07 6:23 a.m.] 246tnt
Not sure how much of an issue it is, but AFAIU the chipping is mostly a source/starting point for fracture under mechanical stress, so given the form factor where we pretty much push on the chip to put it in maybe that's something to watch for.

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[2026-10-07 10:01 a.m.] anfroholic
Alright, I guess I'll continue the discussion here. 

Today I went to Disco and talked with their engineers, they were great people and gave a lot of great information.

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[2026-10-07 10:04 a.m.] anfroholic
Started a thread.


[2026-10-07 10:10 a.m.] mithro_
@Andrew Wingate - I think you can forward the thread / messages or something?

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[2026-10-07 10:35 a.m.] anfroholic
Doesn't seem like you can even forward threads at all.


[2026-10-07 10:36 a.m.] anfroholic
Oh yeah, I met with a Yamaha Robotics wirebonding guy too, capillaries is what we need to look into regarding clearance rules on any given bond


[2026-10-07 10:44 a.m.] mithro_
How / where?


[2026-10-07 12:44 p.m.] anfroholic
When I was meeting with Poh I asked first, "do you know anyone at Kulicke & Soffa" as they are headquartered near my hotel and they make the (best, most, one of those words) wirebonders and he said no. 
I then asked  "do you know *any* wirebonders?" 
And he said "Yeah! Literally downstairs, you want me to call him?"
I obviously said yes lol. 
The guy didn't really have a lot of useful information that was sharable. He sent me to this [product](https://www.yamaha-robotics.com/en/products/process/utc-rz1) and while it does have specs it wasn't what I was hoping for. 

The one dimension I kept asking about was the length based on die height. The spec we used said 1.5x height, @stuart said 2x, but this guy was very adamant those were wrong and you can go super close, it depends on the capillary you get. He drew some stuff on the whiteboard for me and then erased it before I could take a pic. He then pointed me at this company [SPT](https://www.smallprecisiontools.com/shortcuts-en/publications-downloads/semiconductor-bonding-tools-downloads/?oid=120&lang=en) There's a bunch of stuff to read there, but haven't clicked a link, but they sell the capillaries.

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https://www.yamaha-robotics.com/en/products/process/utc-rz1
UTC-RZ1| Product Information | Yamaha Robotics Co., Ltd.
This is the product page for the UTC-RZ1 new generation high-speed wire bonder.Yamaha Robotics is a turn key provider in the field of semiconductor back-end processing and electronic component mounting.
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https://www.smallprecisiontools.com/shortcuts-en/publications-downloads/semiconductor-bonding-tools-downloads/?oid=120&lang=en
Semiconductor Bonding Tools Downloads - SPT Roth Ltd
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[2026-10-14 3:49 a.m.] thatreprapguy
Okay, got the printing working on μRepRap (RepRapMicron). Oh, and put the files/code on github. Here's a test double flexure joint on test pads, done with a path width of 10μm (buy me a damned coffee after this marathon, I'm shaking like a ba*'d! https://ko-fi.com/viksworkshop). It moves. Video to prove it https://youtu.be/ayUqUoDeVxs

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https://ko-fi.com/viksworkshop)
Support Vik's Workshop
Support Vik's Workshop
2026-10_media/2026-08-29_rest-40c5bf369f730b58dd63377bdf-58E9B.jpg

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Vik Olliver
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayUqUoDeVxs
First Micron-Scale Mechanism From RepRapMicron
This object was printed in eSun Standard Resin using a RepRapMicron. The print head was a 9/125 fibre optic patch cable. The circles are 130μm (0.13mm) diameter. It demonstrates a double flexure joint, and proves that RepRapMicron will be capable of producing micron-scale mechanical structures.

Please support my work. It is not commercially or...
2026-10_media/maxresdefault-5E201.jpg

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[2026-10-19 1:51 a.m.] thatreprapguy
Fabricated a test pantograph. This one should reduce motion by 2:1, but that's just for doing things on a scale I can test. 950μm long. https://ko-fi.com/post/Possibly-Plausible-Planar-Pantograph-Print-B4M32925XA

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[2026-10-19 2:48 a.m.] namibj
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mgqq0qdDRM I think I'll see to build one of these soon, to at least allow manual pick-and-place for some flip chip testing, given that no opportunity that doesn't essentially rely on my doing it myself has so far come up.

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Diffraction Limited
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mgqq0qdDRM
A 3D-Printed Compliant Micro-Manipulator - XYZ Positioning down to ...
In this video a cheap and easy to build XYZ-Stage is presented. It uses flexures for accurate motion, while retaining a good amount of rigidity.

✅ Project on Github: https://github.com/0x23/MicroManipulator

00:00 Intro
00:24 Introduction
00:50 Kinematics
02:13 Build Process
08:02 Testing & Results
08:50 Applications
12:02 Outro
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[2026-10-19 6:32 a.m.] deempak
The scl in INDIA has opened two of its old nodes and they are also running mpw for it 

Just wanted to know what do tou guys think of this 
Please don’t consider it as marketing.

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[2026-10-19 6:48 a.m.] 246tnt
Is it really open now ? Previously it was for Indians only ... that's not open ...


[2026-10-19 6:50 a.m.] deempak
Aah , checked again its still the same 🥲 you have to have aadhar number

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[2026-10-19 6:54 a.m.] namibj
I get 403 from daring to try to load the second level domain 😄

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[2026-10-19 6:25 p.m.] futaris
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sipeed/slogic32u3-the-worlds-first-10gbps-usb32-logic-analyzer

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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sipeed/slogic32u3-the-worlds-first-10gbps-usb32-logic-analyzer
SLogic32U3 – The World's First 10Gbps USB3.2 Logic Analyzer
1.4G@4CH,800M@8CH,400M@16CH,200M@32CH,100M ADC,AI debugging via MCP, Runs in your Browser or ngscope, Pro-grade specs at Maker price!
2026-10_media/09012b821ad53342713df4c1bcedbe6d_original-61572.png


[2026-10-19 7:37 p.m.] 246tnt
I have the 16U3 and it works nicely so I also ordered the 32U3 when campaign opened.

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[2026-10-21 4:37 a.m.] anfroholic
One of my PUFs

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[2026-10-21 4:38 a.m.] anfroholic
Some of the test features


[2026-10-21 4:38 a.m.] anfroholic
The snapshot thing on the microscope isn't working sorry for bad quality all around

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[2026-10-21 5:05 a.m.] carlfk


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[2026-10-21 5:06 a.m.] anfroholic
@namibj it seemed to work with my sharper leads! It's all good.


[2026-10-21 5:07 a.m.] namibj
yay


[2026-10-26 6:18 p.m.] nmz787
Hmm they also have 180nm and mems


[2026-10-26 6:18 p.m.] nmz787
My wife is Indian, so I guess I can get details


[2026-10-26 6:20 p.m.] namibj
ohhhh, accessible/MPW MEMS.... the ideas/potentials....

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[2026-10-26 6:36 p.m.] deempak
Yeah scl180 exist but its from TOWER so wont be open anyday soon


[2026-10-26 6:41 p.m.] nmz787
Ah! I don't care if it's open... Being cheap enough and them willing to give access is the bigger question


[2026-10-26 6:41 p.m.] nmz787
But TOWER isn't in India, is it?


[2026-10-26 6:41 p.m.] nmz787
So that's more of a proxy service I guess


[2026-10-26 6:43 p.m.] deempak
They will give if you ask as a business /customer
yeah tower isn’t indian they have some tech transfer not sure tho . But its not poxy


[2026-10-26 7:13 p.m.] nmz787
Dang she doesn't have the voter number


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